tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post7935070977290417595..comments2024-03-10T16:47:38.452-05:00Comments on 4 Quarters, 10 Dimes: The Forgotten Man: In Which I Start With Someone Else's Words and Take Them Where They May or May Not Have Been Meant to GoDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-65960131175364594602011-05-27T14:19:20.975-05:002011-05-27T14:19:20.975-05:00@John - re: Putin - more like "eminence chauv...@John - re: Putin - more like "eminence chauve," it seems. :)<br /><br />@Janiece - we do!Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-32823230851470198092011-05-27T10:05:00.964-05:002011-05-27T10:05:00.964-05:00David, I have smart friends, don't you think? ...David, I have smart friends, don't you think? <br /><br />Hehe.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-41895609056196997262011-05-20T21:53:36.444-05:002011-05-20T21:53:36.444-05:00Yeah, having the artistocracy right there and figh...Yeah, having the artistocracy right there and fighting back always threatens to turn revolutions to the Dark Side. In order to make society even somewhat equitable you have to give the peasants their land, but in order to do that you've got to violate property rights, and it's hard to stop that ball once it gets rolling. I've often wondered what the American Revolution would have looked like if the King had granted landed titles in the Colonies. I think it might have looked a bit like the Warlord Period in post-Imperial China.<br /><br />I ran that Russian site through a couple of the web-based translation filters and they do a reasonable job (with the typical occasional wonkiness) in translating the sense of it.<br /><br />And heh, the descriptor I'd apply to Putin is <i>eminence grise</i>.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-39737529322861596222011-05-19T16:17:39.294-05:002011-05-19T16:17:39.294-05:00No problem on the multiple posts! I found your or...No problem on the multiple posts! I found your original in the spam filter and freed it up, so it is up now.<br /><br />I would be very interested in hearing that recording of Lenin, if you ever get a chance. At some point I am going to set up an email address for this blog, but if you get there before I do we’ll figure something out.<br /><br />I did not mean to give the impression of arguing against your response. There are indeed a number of levels of parallels that can be drawn, and yours were very enlightening to me – my knowledge of Russian history is fairly shallow – so thank you for that. I just wanted to clarify what my own main point was.<br /><br />As someone who does not speak Russian or read in Cyrillic I’m afraid the one link went right by me, but the Medvedev piece was interesting. I don’t know whether he’s superfluous or forgotten or both, but all I ever hear about these days is Putin. <br /><br />Some of the differences between the US and French Revolutions are no doubt due to the application of dvoevlast’e – we had much more experience with self-government and it showed. Some of it was also the theories that we were working (classical republicanism versus Lockean liberalism in a time of radicalizing Enlightenment thought), and some of it was the fact that our entrenched opposition was mostly 3000 miles away while the French entrenched opposition was right there and fighting back. It’s a fascinating swirl of ideas.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-59449091542639804742011-05-19T12:38:04.414-05:002011-05-19T12:38:04.414-05:00Here is a link to the concept of Двоевластие on th...Here is a link to the concept of <a href="http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5" rel="nofollow">Двоевластие</a> on the Russian Wiki. Sorry for the multiple posts, but blogger ate my other one again.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-79741372615934069692011-05-19T12:36:39.577-05:002011-05-19T12:36:39.577-05:00Also, sorry for the typo. It's "dvoevlast...Also, sorry for the typo. It's "dvoevlast'e": "vlast'" not valst'".<br /><br />Vlast' in Russian means "political power", dvoi means "double" or "dual". Here's <a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dmitry-medvedev-the-new-man-790062.html" rel="nofollow">a view</a> of its pernicious effect on Russian history. I don't really subscribe to that view, I don't think anyone who has thought seriously about the difference between the US and French Revolutions could not come to the cponclusion that our version of dvoevlast'e helped us.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-26075107287336612412011-05-19T12:32:58.858-05:002011-05-19T12:32:58.858-05:00I agree with the overall thrust of your post, I wa...I agree with the overall thrust of your post, I was just pointing out that the parallels are on multiple levels, and I agree that Kerensky = Ginrich fits well with your overall premise.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-65857233444888798022011-05-19T12:21:23.530-05:002011-05-19T12:21:23.530-05:00Hmmmm, Blogger seems to have eaten my response. I&...Hmmmm, Blogger seems to have eaten my response. I'll repost again this evening if it doesn't show up. Might be in the spam filter because of 2 links.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-69566200207244959542011-05-19T12:12:31.627-05:002011-05-19T12:12:31.627-05:00Sory, typo. It's dvoevlast'e: "vlast&...Sory, typo. It's dvoevlast'e: "vlast'" not "valst' "("vlast'" means "political power" in Russian, "dvoi" means "double" or "dual": <a href="http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5" rel="nofollow">двоевластье</a> It's featured prominently as an ideal in Trotsky's "Portraits of the Revolutionaries". Here is a <a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dmitry-medvedev-the-new-man-790062.html" rel="nofollow">contrarian view</a> about its utility in Russian politics. (I tend not to subscribe to that view - see post-Revolutionary France, and probably Libya if Qaddafi is overthrown).<br /><br />BTW I have a phonograph record of Lenin's speeches from 1919. One of the big ones is "Shto takoe Sovetskaya Vlast'?" - "What is Soviet Political Power". It's kinda eerie to hear the murderous old bastard's voice. It's a very thick voice, as if he'd been drinking syrup before sepaking - the Russians call this a "sweet voice". <br /><br />If I ever get around to buying a converter to record my vinyl to CD, I can send you a copy, if you are interested.<br /><br />And I do agree with your overall premise, my comment was more to point out that there are several levels of parallels that can be drawn from that system in crisis.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-16621693783099002502011-05-19T08:32:32.979-05:002011-05-19T08:32:32.979-05:00Hi John, and thank you for the thoughtful criticis...Hi John, and thank you for the thoughtful criticism!<br /><br />I would have to agree with your assessment of Kerensky’s for the most part – it was a very tenuous regime (despite its accomplishments), and some of his actions were (from a liberal democratic perspective) questionable at best. But he did try to make Russia into a liberal democracy, and that’s important. Gingrich, for all his many and varied flaws, fits only haphazardly into the Teabagger mold – he seems to believe in liberal democracy, even if his actual ideas would be catastrophic in practice, which makes your parallel between Kerensky and Gingrich fit my point well. <br /><br />One of the points I make when my Western Civ II class gets to the 1920s and especially the Depression of the 1930s is that countries with deep roots in liberal democracy (Britain, France, the US) weathered the challenges from totalitarianism better than countries without such roots (Germany, Italy, Spain). That point holds for Russia in 1917 as well, as you indicate.<br /><br />Although I do like the notion of dvoevalst’e.<br /><br />Kerensky was more of a framing device than the main point of the post, though. The key part of the post was this paragraph: <i> They are the American Bolsheviks. The program changes, but the attitude remains the same.</i> They, of course, being the Teabaggers. <br /><br />My main purpose was to compare them to Lenin’s party on one very specific point of attitude – their shared contempt for democracy, the ensuing belief that they have the right to be in charge regardless of the will of the people, their eager willingness to undermine or ignore democratic institutions and values to achieve that power, and their blind faith that they are right to do so. I see a fundamentally anti-democratic movement in both cases, and it worries me that such a movement is gaining popularity here the way that they are.<br /><br />For all its deep roots in liberal democracy, there is nothing inevitable about the US remaining so. It has to be maintained. And if we do not choose to maintain it, it will go away.<br /><br />I’ve not read Empires of Trust or The Legacy of Rome – thanks for the tip. More for the reading list - at this rate I'll never die. ;)Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-46192335360833113772011-05-19T06:53:51.849-05:002011-05-19T06:53:51.849-05:00Oh, yes, I never thought of Kerensky as the Forgot...Oh, yes, I never thought of Kerensky as the Forgotten Man, more of a creature along the the Russian Literary tradition of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluous_man" rel="nofollow">Superfluous Man</a>. But I guess you can say he's both.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-23337159430299144842011-05-19T06:25:55.474-05:002011-05-19T06:25:55.474-05:00Hah, I am an American who thinks about the Russian...Hah, I am an American who thinks about the Russian Revolution quite a bit (and I'm not a historian). Of course, the fact that I spent 1990 and 1991 in the USSR doesn't hurt... :D<br /><br />Though I like your parallel with Kerensky, I'm not sure so tenuous a regime can be compared with the US system, even in jest. Russia had no experience with self rule and even Trotsky, pushing his idea of dvoevalst'e (I don't mean to name drop, but I don't know another word in English that succinctly expresses the idea that Revolutionary leaders need to have experience before taking power or they make a hash of things), could not find any better training grounds than the worker's Soviets of 1905. We had the Continental Congress (and before that the Colonial legislatures) acting as shadow training governments before the actual split in 1783, which is a big part of the reason why someone like Napoleon or Lenin didn't step into that 6 year void from the end of the war to the ratification of the Constitution.<br /><br />Kerensky also shared a lot of characteristics with his enemies - the premature declaration of a Republic before the agreed-upon mechanism to determine Russia's future government was implemented sounds a lot like a Bolshevik (or teabagger) trick. True, it was done to prevent the aristocrats and monarchists from getting too firm a hold on the process, but that would have been the "wrong result" in Kerensky's eyes - no different from the teabaggers.<br /><br />I have an especial interest in the USSR of the 1920s where Trotsky and Stalin were fighting it out "like spiders in a jar" in the words of Stalin's personal secretary. And it's striking that Kerensky and Trotsky in their capacity as War Minister both had the idea of stripping officer's power and putting authority in the hands of political committees. Trotsky finally had to reverse direction somewhat, but the parallels with him and Kerensky are striking. (And for the record, I think Trotsky would have been a wrose despot than Stalin). <br /><br />What I'm winding my way towards is the conclusion that I see Alexander "No Enemies to the Left" Kerensky more as a Newt Gingrich type figure than a representative of any firm liberal system.<br /><br />I agree with your assessment of most American's grip on history. Have you read "Empires of Trust" or "The Legacy of Rome"? I'm in the middle of those, and I see a lot of parallels there, though as the author of "Empires of Trust" put it, most parallels with Rome made by conservatives are in complete ignorance of Roman history. The other parallel with a decently (or at least longer than 9 months) established system would be the Weimar Republic (including the parallel conservative assault on liberty), but then again, I can see why you'd steer clear of Godwin's Law.<br /><br />In any rate, great piece, it makes you think, and the greatest threat to Democracy right now is people not thinking.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-85812174551342720112011-05-18T14:14:52.273-05:002011-05-18T14:14:52.273-05:00Hey - somebody's gotta do it.Hey - somebody's gotta do it.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977625681756554695.post-25090114790932192742011-05-18T11:22:38.690-05:002011-05-18T11:22:38.690-05:00David, scaring the crap out of the proletariat sin...David, scaring the crap out of the proletariat since 2008.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.com